Forums - Shoto help(ST) Show all 26 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- Shoto help(ST) (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=26142) Posted by Akumamigo on 06:19:2001 07:03 PM: Shoto help(ST) Hi! I have been playing SF and the upgrades for a long time, and recently I bought SSF2X to the Dreamcast. The charahcters have never been so balanced as in that game, so I need a little "help"(from ECC guy especially, I hope). I am going to play a tourney(unofficial Swedish championship), and because of that I need some help. I´m pretty(was very in SF2 and SF2T) good with all three shotos, Ken, Ryu and Akuma. As everyone here known each of these have there letdowns, and good things. I need help picking the right charahcter whoever my opponent is. This is how I play: Ryu, master of the fireballs, and has the games best hurricane kick(?). Playing defense, shoots alot of fireballs, sweep and dragon punch away the enemys, if I got a chanceto a two in one, I take it, and jum back again. Against who should I play with Ryu? Ken:This games masters of Dragon Punches.I play very aggresive, but have problem against players who are good at countering. I find the holes, but my defense suck. The excellent Super Combo saves me sometimes. Got big problem against attacknig players, since the Dp have verytoong reach..Anyway against who should I play with Ken? Akuma:best flying hurricane kick, and th normal one is easy to combine with a DP. Don´t play attacking, I don´t play defense, something in the middle of this to strategs. The flying fireball is very useful in the defense, and the DP is a good one to. The fireball are little to slow compared to Ryu. Biggest problem I have got with Akuma is thathe really don´t fit for attacking game, neither defensing game.I don´t recognze myself with playing with him, changing my style from round to round. Another big problem is that he don´t have a SC, which is disturbing on the ends of the rounds, and a major disadvantage for me. otherwise Akuma really is the best shoto, even if I haven´t find my style of fighting. Against who should I play with Akuma with? Posted by Akumamigo on 06:19:2001 09:35 PM: No one? Posted by omni on 06:19:2001 09:47 PM: I think overall Ryu is better than Ken in almost all matches. Akuma isn't allowed in tourneys here in America, so we'll just skip him. Vs. Ryu ------- I would rather have Ryu than Ken. Vs. Ken ------- I would rather have Ryu than Ken. Vs. Honda --------- both do well. Vs. Blanka ---------- both do well. Vs. Dhalsim ----------- I think Ryu does way better. Vs. Zangief ----------- I think Ken might actually be better in this matchup...shrug. Vs. Chun Li ----------- Ryu all the way. I think Chun Li might actually beat Ken in this game. Vs. Guile --------- I would rather have Ryu personally. Vs. Balrog ---------- Hard matchup for all involved, but I think Ryu stands a better chance. Vs. Vega -------- Again, a hard matchup for all involved, but Ken prolly does better. Vs. Sagat --------- Ryu Vs. Bison --------- Ryu Vs. Cammy --------- Ryu, i think Ken might lose to Cammy. Vs. DJ ------ Ryu Vs. Fei Long ------------ Hrm..prolly Ryu. Vs. Thawk --------- really hard matchup for all involved, i think Ryu might be a little easier for thawk than ken. It's a fun matchup though. Derek Daniels omni@shoryuken.com Posted by LynX on 06:19:2001 09:48 PM: Hmm ... I'll answer in swedish as Migo is so ... Tycker du ska köra Ryu asså ... Han e fan grymmast ... Akuma är oxå bra .. Nu när jag tänker efter så e alla bra .. Men jag skulle köra Ryu om jag var du, eftersom han e bra på både långt och kort avstånd ... En annan grej som e bra me Ryu är keep-away taktiken man kan köra, den liknar Remys faktiskt ... Kasta eldbollar och gör shoryukens när han kommer nära ... Kommer inte att funka på mej i 3rd strike dock, för det har jag lärt mig parry:a nu Du kommer att få SÅ ont om du gör det ))) Nåja ... GL i älta3 .... //Soder Posted by Akumamigo on 06:19:2001 11:05 PM: Well Akuma isn´t banned in this one, actually I can´t see any reason. He´s exactly as good as the others. I like playing with Ken, he´s got a very nice Dragon Punch, and in my opinion a better regular scheudle than Ryu. But, I think ryu is a better choice for me So, can´t you do that list again? Another personal opinion: Ken does better than Ryu against Fei Long, and T.Hawk. Well do the list once again, and include Akuma...PLZ? Söderqvist: Vi snackar Super Turbon. Inte Third Strike. Akta dig för mig, jag är faktiskt farlig i det spelet trots att jag bara spelar DI. Vi syns in person i Älta! Posted by Crayfish on 06:19:2001 11:25 PM: Akuma strategy vs everyone: Jump, throw air fireball-repeat. Posted by roboticus on 06:20:2001 05:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by Akumamigo Well Akuma isn´t banned in this one, actually I can´t see any reason. He´s exactly as good as the others. I like playing with Ken, he´s got a very nice Dragon Punch, and in my opinion a better regular scheudle than Ryu. But, I think ryu is a better choice for me So, can´t you do that list again? Another personal opinion: Ken does better than Ryu against Fei Long, and T.Hawk. Well do the list once again, and include Akuma...PLZ? Akuma beats everyone. If I had to pick match-ups, I would always use Akuma. If your tournament does not ban Akuma, then that means people do not know what a pain in the ass he is. You can "practically" lock-down any opponent by jumping fb, land, fb. I say "practically" b/c if just when you think you can get out, you get dp'd or hk'd. Then, repeat. If anyone manages to win against Akuma, it's b/c of Akuma's slopiness and not b/c of the skill of the opponent. I think Akuma's closest matches are Cammy, and maybe Dhalsim (but I think Akuma can abuse the hk). I haven't played him seriously, for like 5 years, b/c he's banned. Dale Posted by JumpsuitJesse on 06:20:2001 06:18 PM: A tournament allows Akuma to be played, and the winner doesn't win with him?? What does that say about the quality of local competition?? JumpsuitJesse "I don't sweat you!" Pauly - Rocky 3 Posted by BloodRiotIori on 06:20:2001 06:41 PM: true, gouki is overpowered and has incredible juggling abilities compared to others this leads to heavy combos without too much effort/skill/timing i prefer ryu as he tends to hit knock-downs more often from his range of moves, which can lead to many opportunities for you to take. he has an excellent air priority move (jumping strong punch) Posted by Tiger Bones on 06:20:2001 07:16 PM: on and on and on i keep hearing about how Akuma owns all on ST. he is the best character in the game by far but there are 4 match ups that are VERY hard for him O Ryu O Ken Ryu Balrog akumas air fbs are an annoyance for sure but if your skilled enough with balrog u can time double hit rushes agaisnt akuma which will see him lose out massively.. Akuma is also susceptible to Balrogs awesome corner trapping abilities.. Dont even mention trying to warp out of the corner.. any balrog player worth his salt will provide your ass with a perfect dash punch to the jaw or a super if charged. that fight is only slightly in Akumas favour. O Ryu can just walk and dp thru air fb's and his ground game is far superior to Akumas. Faster fb's faster footises only thing akuma has that can match O Ryus ground game is that damned knock down hurricane kick. Skilled Ryu players will be seeking double hits throughout the duration of the fight.. picking which air fbs to dp thru which ones to block and which ones to seek double hits against. This fight is Equal. Akuma has to reduce his air fb's to a minimum also because O ryu can hit him with ground fbs well timed to hit akumas feet when hes throwing air fbs. O Ken. The only char in the game that Akuma can't throw offensive air fbs at.. Fierce Dp owns air fbs O ken gives akuma massive headaches his fb traps affect akuma just like anyone else. and his ground speed hurts akuma. Ryu.. similar to O Ryu but slower and has to be more patient.. but once that super bar is up Akuma can't throw air fbs anymore.. then Ryu is stronger than Akuma. Don't get me wrong Akuma is the strongest char in the game by far but just cos someone picks him does no way mean they will win a toutney.. they've just increased their chances ten fold thats all but it's misleading to say OH NO! HE PICKED AKUMA I AM DEAD FULL STOP. that aint the case.. its no way easy to beat those 4 chars as some ppl are making out. And i defy anyone to prove that wrong. Akuma cannot dominate skilled players using those chars.. he may win by scraping the victories.. but he will not be having 80% life bars at the end of the round watch japanese players bring the beatdown to akuma. with the aformentioned chars.. I have done so on numerous occasions also..and please stop saying once u pick akuma its over...thats bs granted its not fair to the rest of the cast....thats why he should be banned imo,,, but to say that he owns the game is not wholly accurate.. i await the flames ... but those that know will understand my points out Posted by Sentinel Force on 06:20:2001 08:21 PM: vega will dominate gouki if he just keeps jumping around like a jackass and throwing fbs all day..... Posted by BloodRiotIori on 06:20:2001 08:40 PM: quote: Originally posted by Tiger Bones on and on and on i keep hearing about how Akuma owns all on ST. he is the best character in the game by far but there are 4 match ups that are VERY hard for him O Ryu O Ken Ryu Balrog akumas air fbs are an annoyance for sure but if your skilled enough with balrog u can time double hit rushes agaisnt akuma which will see him lose out massively.. Akuma is also susceptible to Balrogs awesome corner trapping abilities.. Dont even mention trying to warp out of the corner.. any balrog player worth his salt will provide your ass with a perfect dash punch to the jaw or a super if charged. that fight is only slightly in Akumas favour. O Ryu can just walk and dp thru air fb's and his ground game is far superior to Akumas. Faster fb's faster footises only thing akuma has that can match O Ryus ground game is that damned knock down hurricane kick. Skilled Ryu players will be seeking double hits throughout the duration of the fight.. picking which air fbs to dp thru which ones to block and which ones to seek double hits against. This fight is Equal. Akuma has to reduce his air fb's to a minimum also because O ryu can hit him with ground fbs well timed to hit akumas feet when hes throwing air fbs. O Ken. The only char in the game that Akuma can't throw offensive air fbs at.. Fierce Dp owns air fbs O ken gives akuma massive headaches his fb traps affect akuma just like anyone else. and his ground speed hurts akuma. Ryu.. similar to O Ryu but slower and has to be more patient.. but once that super bar is up Akuma can't throw air fbs anymore.. then Ryu is stronger than Akuma. Don't get me wrong Akuma is the strongest char in the game by far but just cos someone picks him does no way mean they will win a toutney.. they've just increased their chances ten fold thats all but it's misleading to say OH NO! HE PICKED AKUMA I AM DEAD FULL STOP. that aint the case.. its no way easy to beat those 4 chars as some ppl are making out. And i defy anyone to prove that wrong. Akuma cannot dominate skilled players using those chars.. he may win by scraping the victories.. but he will not be having 80% life bars at the end of the round watch japanese players bring the beatdown to akuma. with the aformentioned chars.. I have done so on numerous occasions also..and please stop saying once u pick akuma its over...thats bs granted its not fair to the rest of the cast....thats why he should be banned imo,,, but to say that he owns the game is not wholly accurate.. i await the flames ... but those that know will understand my points out oh yeah i agree with those points its just that gouki can cause most damage with so little effort and using so little opening Posted by Gene Splice on 06:20:2001 08:46 PM: how do you pick the old characters? Posted by Akumamigo on 06:20:2001 11:06 PM: "A tournament allows Akuma to be played, and the winner doesn't win with him?? What does that say about the quality of local competition?" Well, I don´t plan to losse.. Even thoug Ryu is great to. Posted by gamedude_7 on 06:21:2001 01:27 AM: i realized that i can do jump-in combos with akuma much easier than with ken since i don't have to worry about the angle i jump in, in order to do a jump-in combo. Do u guys have any tips to help me land jump-in combos? Posted by mondu_the_fat on 06:21:2001 02:24 AM: quote: Originally posted by Sentinel Force vega will dominate gouki if he just keeps jumping around like a jackass and throwing fbs all day..... Um... right. Posted by ckl on 06:21:2001 05:38 AM: balrog beat akuma! Posted by SF2Freak on 06:21:2001 04:12 PM: If someone jumps at you throwing fireballs with Akuma, sure he can get punished. If someone JUMPS AWAY with Akuma throwing air fireballs there is nothing you can do until he reaches the corner, then he can air hurricane kick or teleport to the other side of the screen. Add in the fact that he's still a shoto with damaging moves, and has the fastest release on a FB (just don't do red ones on the ground except for combos ) makes him a rather disgusting shoto and that is why he his number 1. Basically Ken and Ryu are already top tier or right under top tier, because they lose certain matches. Add the air fireball, and those matches are then in Akuma's favor. Posted by crossover on 06:21:2001 04:17 PM: dave you forgot no dizzy Posted by roboticus on 06:21:2001 05:46 PM: Excuse my editting, but see my counter-arguments: quote: Originally posted by Tiger Bones on and on and on i keep hearing about how Akuma owns all on ST. he is the best character in the game by far but there are 4 match ups that are VERY hard for him [snip] akumas air fbs are an annoyance for sure but if your skilled enough with balrog u can time double hit rushes agaisnt akuma which will see him lose out massively.. No, any of Balrog's rp's can be countered by a sloppily timed hk (but not too sloppy). That's two (maybe three) hits then the jab dp. Then, Akuma jump backs and air-fbs, then lands then fbs, then starts the air-fb-land-fb trap. Balrog has to catch Akuma by surprise at the outset of the tournment, but it's hard to put together any type of offense if Balrog is blocking all the time. B/c of Akuma's angle on the air-fb, Akuma can space himself out such that Balrog's rp's are not much of a threat. quote: Originally posted by Tiger Bones Akuma is also susceptible to Balrogs awesome corner trapping abilities.. Dont even mention trying to warp out of the corner.. any balrog player worth his salt will provide your ass with a perfect dash punch to the jaw or a super if charged. that fight is only slightly in Akumas favour. Akuma doesn't need to warp. Balrog will never get close. The only way for Balrog to come in is if Akuma let's him in, or Balrog supers his way in. Granted, Akuma can't be sloppy with his FB trap, but, nonetheless, this isn't a close fight. quote: Originally posted by Tiger Bones O Ryu can just walk and dp thru air fb's and his ground game is far superior to Akumas. Faster fb's faster footises only thing akuma has that can match O Ryus ground game is that damned knock down hurricane kick. Skilled Ryu players will be seeking double hits throughout the duration of the fight.. picking which air fbs to dp thru which ones to block and which ones to seek double hits against. This fight is Equal. Akuma has to reduce his air fb's to a minimum also because O ryu can hit him with ground fbs well timed to hit akumas feet when hes throwing air fbs. I would no way say that this fight is equal. Akuma can dp thru fbs, too. I don't believe that Ryu has faster footsies, nor should it make a difference, it's priority that counts and I believe that Akuma has will out-prioritize. Akuma's dp is quicker, which means he can evade fbs and go back to his super annoying fb-trap. Despite the fact Ryu can dp thru fbs, Ryu stays in the air long enough for Akuma to land and fb, making Ryu take the hit or block. Akuma's hk doesn't knock down, Ryu's does. Are you saying that's a bad thing? You _want_ to knock down to set-up meaty attacks and wake-up games. Akuma's will multi-hit and add a dp to the end for a nice chunk of dmg. quote: Originally posted by Tiger Bones O Ken. The only char in the game that Akuma can't throw offensive air fbs at.. Fierce Dp owns air fbs O ken gives akuma massive headaches his fb traps affect akuma just like anyone else. and his ground speed hurts akuma. O.Ken is a closer match-up than O.Ryu, but no way does Ken have a worthy FB trap. Ken's fierce fb is too slow. He can only work off his slow-fb trap. However, if the fr dp does not knock down, Akuma will land first and three-hit juggle ken's when he lands. Also, in order for Ken to work his slow-fb trap, he has to get close, which Akuma will not allow. Dale Posted by BloodRiotIori on 06:21:2001 07:32 PM: quote: Originally posted by gamedude_7 i realized that i can do jump-in combos with akuma much easier than with ken since i don't have to worry about the angle i jump in, in order to do a jump-in combo. Do u guys have any tips to help me land jump-in combos? thing is with gouki you don't even need a jump-in opportunity to have a good chance of landing some harsh damage- juggling comes into real effect here Posted by Tiger Bones on 06:21:2001 08:36 PM: ok let me say one thing here.. if u plan to jump back air fb and win ur kidding urself.. i'm fully aware of every single thing akuma can do and they are not as awesome against those 3 chars as u make them sound especially not ur 'so simple' method to 'owning' balrog.. if ur playing any kind of intelligent balrog player he's not about to rush in blindly and unless u have the reflexs of bruce lee and the hand speed to match you are not about to stop him getting in 100% of a round i'm sorry but that's highly unrealistic idealism to think u can shut balrog out with such simplicity. this isn't zangief we're talking about here its mr face masher energy muncher Balrog. the concept of clearing angled retreating air fbs sounds foreign to you. a good balrog player will clear up the space between himself and akuma within 30 seconds of blocking air fbs and closing up the spaces slowly and efficiently then akumas getting opened up like any other char. air fbs take off minimal energy i think its 6 air fbs is equal to the energy of one of balrogs rush punch connections. be aware that one trade on an offensive air fb and akumas in more trouble then rog is.. retreating air fbs. no matter the angle are not the mammoth threat to balrog that you say they are.. unless time is really low and balrogs trying to get a hit in to try and gain back a win. Retreating air fbs are able to be negated and from the back of the screen akuma hasn't got a strong position unless he's playing turtle. I don't dispute the reason akuma is banned from tourneys.. but i reiterate these 4 chars give him major headaches .. the simplistic methods you speak of to deal with the aformentioned chars are quite ridiculous in relation to their abilities and reasons why they CAN hold their own vs akuma. Posted by ckl on 06:22:2001 01:06 AM: so,rog is still suck! Posted by gamedude_7 on 06:22:2001 03:31 AM: if doing air fireballs during the whole match actually works, why bother doing that anyways? If all you ever do is air fireballs in every match, how is that even consider a fight if it works every time? It makes the game less fun and u can't improve any skills but maybe patience. Don't know if i said this already in this thread but i have a few strategies against akumas who just like doing air fireballs all day. 1)slow projectiles-if timed right akuma will land right on it after his air fireball 2)sakura's dragonpunch-i try to get as close as i can and do a dragonpunch, she ends up running under akuma's fireball and hitting him from underneath. You can try jump blocking akuma's air fireballs and press KK to roll to get closer to him as well. Anyone got tricks for land-in combos? I don't think akuma(i find that he can do jump-in combos at any angle) will exist in every street fighter game so i think we'll all have to worry about the angle we jump in. Posted by roboticus on 06:22:2001 05:24 PM: quote: Originally posted by Tiger Bones ok let me say one thing here.. if u plan to jump back air fb and win ur kidding urself.. i'm fully aware of every single thing akuma can do and they are not as awesome against those 3 chars as u make them sound especially not ur 'so simple' method to 'owning' balrog.. if ur playing any kind of intelligent balrog player he's not about to rush in blindly and unless u have the reflexs of bruce lee and the hand speed to match you are not about to stop him getting in 100% of a round i'm sorry but that's highly unrealistic idealism to think u can shut balrog out with such simplicity. this isn't zangief we're talking about here its mr face masher energy muncher Balrog. the concept of clearing angled retreating air fbs sounds foreign to you. a good balrog player will clear up the space between himself and akuma within 30 seconds of blocking air fbs and closing up the spaces slowly and efficiently then akumas getting opened up like any other char. air fbs take off minimal energy i think its 6 air fbs is equal to the energy of one of balrogs rush punch connections. be aware that one trade on an offensive air fb and akumas in more trouble then rog is.. retreating air fbs. no matter the angle are not the mammoth threat to balrog that you say they are.. unless time is really low and balrogs trying to get a hit in to try and gain back a win. Retreating air fbs are able to be negated and from the back of the screen akuma hasn't got a strong position unless he's playing turtle. I don't dispute the reason akuma is banned from tourneys.. but i reiterate these 4 chars give him major headaches .. the simplistic methods you speak of to deal with the aformentioned chars are quite ridiculous in relation to their abilities and reasons why they CAN hold their own vs akuma. Hey, I never said that these were simple matches. I agree that these are harder match-ups for Akuma, but you're looking at (all against, best possibly odds for opponent)_arguably_ 7-3 for Ken (better if Akuma falls for the slow-fb trap, or slow-fb corner trap) to 8-2 for Balrog, granted the 2 wins for Balrog are going to be lopsided match ups. The strats I posted are not simple at all, but take up a majority of the game, for example, Zangief vs. Vega. If Zangief doesn't counter Vega w/c.strongs, he's dead. However, randomly throwing out c.strong will also get Zangief killed, so definitely not an easy strat. Akuma jumping back and fb isn't an easy strat and shouldn't be abused, the same as Balrog can't rush in all day. You even state that Balrog will close in around 30 secs, which, imo, is closer to 30 secs, if Balrog doesn't do it right off the bat. How long is Balrog going to try double rushing when Akuma's mobility makes him lose his charge? -- which is the only strat you listed -- mind you, a much harder technique to execute as opposed to properly spacing. Remember, a good Akuma will have the advantage of putting Balrog in a position where he can counter-attack Balrog. Again, this isn't easy, but considering equal players, Akuma has the advantage. At the start of the match, Balrog has three options: 1) block; 2) low/high rush; 3) buffalo hb. Akuma can 1) teleport; 2) jump back/up and air-fb, 3) fb 4) wait until Balrog loses his charge, then set up his fb trap. Generally, the only bad decision for Balrog is to block. Akuma, on the other hand, can do many things to bait Balrog, one of which to jump back and air-fb. Unless Balrog knows Akuma is going to do this, (at which point Balrog should immediately high rush), the match has just shifted into Akuma's favor. Assuming no rush by Balrog, Akuma can air-fb or land and fb, depending on the situation. For kicks, Akuma will probably air-fb (late, but will miss). At this point, Balrog can only sit there or lose his charge (Balrog should try to close the gap, i.e lose his charge), but if he tries to rush, Balrog will either get hit by the air-fb (only if dumb) or, most likely, eat at least a 3-hit dp. No double-rush here, not even the cpu double-rushes on a whiffed first rush. MOst of the time, Balrog will sit there and wait for the air-fb to miss, most of the time Balrog will not try to close the gap b/c they know the air-fb was just bait. Akuma however, is in now perfect position to start the fb-trap. Balrog will have to block at least 2 fbs to get the charge before he can risk rushing through the fb/decide to close the gap. The whole time (still assuming proper spacing), Akuma will be spaced such that he can counter Balrog. If Balrog wishes to counter the air-fb, he has to attack first, a small window of opportunity, otherwise, he eats the air-fb, though a trade, iirc, is in Balrog's favor. Akuma can wait on his air-fb, or land and fb (note: this is a common point where Akuma miss-applies the fb trap, but waiting for Akuma to mess up is not an option) . Eventually, Balrog will have to let go of his charge and try to corner akuma. Balrog has great walking speed, so this is a viable option. But, this is not an easy task (mind you, though, not much harder than keeping the fb-trap, but definitely harder). As soon as Balrog loses his charge, Akuma will do what he can to get out of the corner, including sweep xx teleport/air-fb teleport/whatever, teleport. How is Balrog going to rush in? He doesn't; his best bet is to meet Akuma out of the teleport and TAP (very risky, and very difficult) through the FB trap or close the gap. The longer the match continues like this, the more likely Akuma will win. Akuma can keep the match like this for the entire round, Balrog almost always on the defensive. Also consider mistakes: Mistakes by Balrog will result in at least a 3 hit dp. Mistakes by Akuma will result in a TAP (unlikely, somewhat akin to Zangief perfectly timing a glove hand into 720), or a throw (to set up Balrog's corner trap). Considering the most mobile Balrog, the match ends w/Akuma winning by blocked dmg. In light of Balrog's need to charge and Akuma's mobility, the match is clearly in Akuma's favor. Dale Posted by ckl on 06:24:2001 12:25 PM: akuma air fb kill ALL zangief!!!![pecfect win!] All times are GMT. The time now is 10:33 PM. Show all 26 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.